Curse

The Josip · Feb 23, 2010, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

OK they are two types of arguments against mesmer buff:

1. Mesmers are fine, they don't need the buff - plz look at mesmers skills - except very little useful skills that are nice, the rest is garbage in pve or have weak effect, high energy cost, long reacharge - some skills that even weren't that good in fisrt place in pve were hit by nerfbat so they are now increadibly bad: ig Inpetitude- nerf to reacharge 20 s, it's so much better to bring blinding surge or blurred vision.

2. Ok mesmers are bad but since we are talking meta pve balance until that happens one profesion has to suck and mesmers fill that role just prefectly- well imo meta pve balance is a fairytale and a myth and the rest of that argument is just bias.

3. Mesmers are good in PvP (not in FA or RA, but GvG) so they can suck in PvE. Mmm okay, except that mesmer isnt overpowered in PvP, it's just ok. Like many other professions. None of these professions is expected to suck in PvE because they are okay in GvG.

Gill Halendt · Feb 23, 2010, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

OK they are two types of arguments against mesmer buff:

1. Mesmers are fine, they don't need the buff - plz look at mesmers skills - except very little useful skills that are nice, the rest is garbage in pve or have weak effect, high energy cost, long reacharge - some skills that even weren't that good in fisrt place in pve were hit by nerfbat so they are now increadibly bad: ig Inpetitude- nerf to reacharge 20 s, it's so much better to bring blinding surge or blurred vision.

2. Ok mesmers are bad but since we are talking meta pve balance until that happens one profesion has to suck and mesmers fill that role just prefectly- well imo meta pve balance is a fairytale and a myth and the rest of that argument is just bias.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

3. Mesmers are good in PvP (not in FA or RA, but GvG) so they can suck in PvE. Mmm okay, except that mesmer isnt overpowered in PvP, it's just ok. Like many other professions. None of these professions is expected to suck in PvE because they are okay in GvG.

There's no "argument against the buff". I think ANYONE will agree about Mesmers needing a buff.

We're arguing about the point of all this complaints.

"Mum, I didn't get my buff, I'm a sad panda now and want all the Guru community to know it". That's what this thread is all about: sterile and single-minded polemic of a disappointed Mesmer not getting any zomfgimba skill in the next balance. Hard for me to see anything beyond that.

Rangers didn't get any buff, HaO being a minor plus. Paragons were nerfed further. Dervish aren't even mentioned in these notes. Do we have to open a thread for each profession so that people can complain? Do complaints bring anywhere?

You know the answer, don't you?

Shriketalon · Feb 23, 2010, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Rangers didn't get any buff, HaO being a minor plus. Paragons were nerfed further. Dervish aren't even mentioned in these notes. Do we have to open a thread for each profession so that people can complain? Do complaints bring anywhere?

The Dervish thread is in Sardelac. The Para discussion dropped off the first page. It's been awhile since the last Ranger complaint. Point is, yes, yes they exist.

It is called feedback.

We can't change the game, we can't adjust skills, but we can communicate exactly how we feel about Ye Olde State Of The Guild Wars. That means telling Anet how we react to certain events (like the thread thanking them for Wintersday Redux, indicating that it was a good move) or complaints about certain issues (like the hacking threads prompting security concerns). Are all complaints worthwhile? Certainly not. But they can provide information about how the community is feeling about certain things. If the mesmer is repeatedly mentioned as useless, underpowered, or underperforming, then it might be worth giving them another look and evaluating their current state.

Gill Halendt · Feb 23, 2010, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

It is called feedback.

It's called "rant". Feedback pages on the Wiki.

Essence Snow · Feb 23, 2010, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

There's no "argument against the buff". I think ANYONE will agree about Mesmers needing a buff.

We're arguing about the point of all this complaints.

So in other words arguing for the sake of arguing

MagmaRed · Feb 23, 2010, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

We already know that energy management primary attributes are a bad idea that make balance harder. Adding another one is far more likely to screw things up than fix things.

Again, what you need is skills that are bad unless you are a Mesmer primary with runes. Even if ANet can't fix the linear progression problem, they could just use the Gale mechanic (50% failure chance if skill level < 13) to give Mesmers exclusive tools unavailable to classes with superior primary attributes.

I do see a problem with that though. The only thing I am aware of that requires 13 in an attribute to be effective is the Sentinals insignia for Warriors. If you make a skill require 13 attibute points to work (even 50% of the time) you force attribute splits. 12-12-3, 12-10-8, 12-11-6, etc. all would be fine since your minor rune can still get that 13 spot. But people who want to run 11-10-10, or 10-10-8-8, etc. are all losing out. Using 11 with a minor rune and a head piece work, but it starts to make various options much harder, even for the Mesmer you are trying to help.

Del · Feb 23, 2010, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

3. Mesmers are good in PvP (not in FA or RA, but GvG) so they can suck in PvE. Mmm okay, except that mesmer isnt overpowered in PvP, it's just ok.

Me/N virulence gank mesmers are OP in FA/RA

Pblock is strong everywhere.

VoR is pretty decent.

and a mesmer that can time diversion and shame is just downright amazing anywhere(but pve).

at this point, i doubt your understanding of mesmers.

Shadowspawn X · Feb 23, 2010, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

The consistent complaint lodged in these threads is that you can't get your Mesmers into PuGs. The listed fixes won't solve those problems.

I really wonder about this claim. My mesmer has no problems getting into groups. Kanaxai was the zb a couple of days ago and I was lfg for all of two minutes before I was fighting my way out of room 3, which is typical of my recent experience(last two years) pugging on my mesmer. The mesmer shines in a pug environment even if he is not directly dealing massive damage. Who can deny that a mob that can't get any heals are hexed with VoR, empathy and whatever else is on the bar doesn't die faster. Not to even mention the mesmer still has three maxed out overpowered pve skills on his bar like everyone else in the pug. I think many players realize this and don't discriminate against the mesmers like they did in the past.

Gill Halendt · Feb 23, 2010, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

So in other words arguing for the sake of arguing

Yes, sort of. That's it. This stopped being a discussion about "Mesmers" on Page 2 and it's getting a matter of principle about fairness and underpowered gay men and net-hosed tarts not getting their fair share of broken stuff...

Guess we're warming up for the QQ-fest after the next update

Essence Snow · Feb 23, 2010, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Yes, sort of. That's it. This stopped being a discussion about "Mesmers" on Page 2 and it's getting a matter of principle about fairness and underpowered gay men and net-hosed tarts not getting their fair share of broken stuff..

I'm hoping this is more of an exaggerant of analogies and not an expression of hate

Del · Feb 23, 2010, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Yes, sort of. That's it. This stopped being a discussion about "Mesmers" on Page 2 and it's getting a matter of principle about fairness and underpowered gay men and net-hosed tarts not getting their fair share of broken stuff...

Guess we're warming up for the QQ-fest after the next update

You sir, are extremely funny. You have earned a banana sticker.

Gill Halendt · Feb 23, 2010, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

I'm hoping this is more of an exaggerant of analogies and not an expression of hate

Sure is. Didn't mean to offend.

EDIT: (the gay men and net-hosed tarts being Male and Female Mesmer respectively)

Gun Pierson · Feb 23, 2010, 06:52 PM // 18:52

First I want to say I agree with some of you that mesmer has the most useful spells as a secondary out of the entire game imo.

If they are afraid to make mesmers more efficient as a primary, I think they should consider buffing the smite signets, so a mesmer can excell at signets and do some damage with them as atm you can't kill a fly with those signets in HM (except vs undead).

Oh wait, several people already wet their pants from the moment I said buff smite, but except from ray and holy wrath/retribution in the 600/smite build (which will be nerfed), the line is still mostly unwanted. Like for example 'Word of Censure', not a soul uses it except to have a laugh I guess.

Kinda hit two birds with one stone, but even if that's not possible, they should come up with something else as mesmers need some love in pve. I agree the blood line needed some work too, but necro is still way overpowered when it comes to energy management and needs to be looked at. Sabway keeps people 'dumb'.

gremlin · Feb 23, 2010, 07:02 PM // 19:02

There have been many comments about Mesmers

Mainly they come down to that they are an underpowered class for pve and not popular in parties.

However

Mesmer skills are universally popular as a secondary skill line so the skills must be pretty good.
Mesmer enemies are a real pain at times preventing party casters getting off skills.

We seem to like the skills and gripe constantly about being interrupted and having skills knocked out or recharge times increased.
However we don't seem to value the mesmer when they are busy shutting down enemy spellcasters.

Perhaps because we don't see what they are doing since the result of all their hard work is the Meteor storm that didn't happen the resurrection of an enemy that didn't occur.
Denying the enemy casters access to their best skills is what we do.

Its a team game and they work well in most parties

Martin Alvito · Feb 23, 2010, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

Its a team game and they work well in most parties

I don't think that this is under dispute. PvE is easy and any class will do well in the hands of a skilled player. The complaint is that Mesmers are so dramatically underpowered that players would rather take an equally skilled player on a different class. The result is that Mesmer players have difficulty getting accepted into skilled PuGs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

If you make a skill require 13 attibute points to work (even 50% of the time) you force attribute splits. 12-12-3, 12-10-8, 12-11-6, etc. all would be fine since your minor rune can still get that 13 spot. But people who want to run 11-10-10, or 10-10-8-8, etc. are all losing out. Using 11 with a minor rune and a head piece work, but it starts to make various options much harder, even for the Mesmer you are trying to help.

First of all, you've got a hat. Second of all, there are always major and superior runes. I won't deny that there would be costs. But this represents one way to make Mesmers viable without the undesirable consequence of just creating more skills for other classes to use without having to spec Mesmer primary, or reworking Fast Casting and risking unintended imbalance consequences.

Moving some unloved skills to Fast Casting and making them good would be another way of addressing the issue if you hate the 13 attribute rule.

drkn · Feb 23, 2010, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

1) Every class has a niche. There is something that the class can do better than every other profession, or at least as well as every other profession in that niche.

2) Every niche filled by a class is useful, and is therefore desirable to take in some form of broad teamplay.

wholeheartedly agreed.

sorry for a meaningless post this time, but i just had to sign down at it.

The Josip · Feb 23, 2010, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

Me/N virulence gank mesmers are OP in FA/RA

Pblock is strong everywhere.

VoR is pretty decent.

and a mesmer that can time diversion and shame is just downright amazing anywhere(but pve).

at this point, i doubt your understanding of mesmers.

You can doubt whatever you want. Naming few skills won't make mesmer better.

Pblock is strong? Right. In FA, if you're Luxon MeMo with Ray will be better than any disruption you can come up with. On Kurzick side of FA, Ranger will be more useful (turtle staller, or trapper) than your Pblock mesmer and I played Pblock mesmer.

VoR is decent, but isn't interruption disruption right?

Shame and Diversion are outright amazing? Did you even play FA? Where in FA would you use these, and I did try both. It's just inferior. In RA, sure, Diversion and Shame are amazing.. oh wait I played domination mesmer more in RA than any other class, and I can tell you it is nothing special now, and you don't always have monk on your team which aids ranger a lot.

My understanding of mesmers doesn't come from romantic views of them and their skills. FYI, as a mesmer in Prophecies I could solo 3-4 people in RA in fair conditions, and I could make 4-mesmer team (no healer) for TA which plower and had flawless streaks. That's what skilled players could do with a mesmer back then. None of this is possible now after so many nerfs. Stop living in the past, mesmers are not PvP powerhouses they used to be, and still suck in PvE. No amount of skill will you better, as far as mesmer skills are concerned. Wake up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

Mesmer skills are universally popular as a secondary skill line so the skills must be pretty good.
Mesmer enemies are a real pain at times preventing party casters getting off skills.

We seem to like the skills and gripe constantly about being interrupted and having skills knocked out or recharge times increased.
However we don't seem to value the mesmer when they are busy shutting down enemy spellcasters.

Another fairytale refugee.

Look, monsters have perfect interrupts. No good mesmer in HM takes interrupt skills except very very rarely for very very specific purpose. If you ever played mesmer you would know why.

Also, mesmer monsters are weak in general. Usually people are afraid of ele monsters or some Rt ones because of a lot of dmg. You have to be kidding me, what mesmer monster is dangerous? Perhaps some in UW? Or perhaps some in the jungle jumping on unaware traveler? In 99% of game areas mesmer monsters are annoyance at best. That doesn't make them good. SB monk monsters and SForm as monsters are also annoying, it doesnt make them good overall (monsters). You can make a poll on what monsters cause party wipe the most, and mesmer monsters will be at the end of the list, really.

Mesmer secondaries are not that popular. Where do people get this from? Where are you playing? What skills are you using from mesmer line on your ele etc? AE? I really cant think of anything other than that.
No hero builds use mesmer secondary, none good that is. Necro heroes use paragon secondaries, Rt secondaries, Mo secondaries. Melee classes and Para use W secondary for SY. I'd really like to know where is this Me secondary so popular?

Gill Halendt · Feb 23, 2010, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Shame and Diversion are outright amazing? Did you even play FA? Where in FA would you use these, and I did try both. It's just inferior. In RA, sure, Diversion and Shame are amazing.. oh wait I played domination mesmer more in RA than any other class, and I can tell you it is nothing special now, and you don't always have monk on your team which aids ranger a lot.

Stop living in the past, mesmers are not PvP powerhouses they used to be, and still suck in PvE. No amount of skill will you better, as far as mesmer skills are concerned. Wake up.

Weren't we talking about PvE?

Aren't you just beating a dead horse now? We can name any skill in the game, YOU've used sometimes it and failed to instakill everything, so the Mesmer obviously sucks. You already explained your (absurd IMO) idea of "balance" - everyone must have at least one instawin skill, so that the game is finally fair - and yes, Mesmers don't have any insanely overpowered option available. Thank God I say, but well, that's just me...

Ever tought you should try other professions then? What's the point in YOU playing a Mesmer, when anything we can name isn't suitable to your game and you don't seem to like it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Also, mesmer monsters are weak in general. Usually people are afraid of ele monsters or some Rt ones because of a lot of dmg. You have to be kidding me, what mesmer monster is dangerous?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Yammiron,_Ether_Lord
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Roaring_Ether
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Jotun_Mindbreaker

The first three that came into my mind

PS - Mesmer secondary is used a lot by Monks for e-management, Eles/Necros for echoing, Rangers for more interrupts and condition spreading...

The Josip · Feb 23, 2010, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Weren't we talking about PvE?

You already explained your (absurd IMO) idea of "balance" - everyone must have at least one instawin skill, so that the game is finally fair

You lack comprehension skills, looking at these two sentences. First one was talk about something and you obviously didn't understand the context.

The second is also false; it's not my idea of balance, im just playing along with ANets idea of balance to make it fair for all professions. Obviously, you fail to comprehend that too and are only interested in one-liners.

Quote:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Yammiron,_Ether_Lord
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Roaring_Ether

This is a great example. I assume you were trying to say that mesmer monsters are only dangerous in your opinion when they use ele-like skills such as Energy Surge and Energy Burn? Yea, mesmers indeed suck.

Quote:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Jotun_Mindbreaker

Who the hell ever died to Jotun Mindbreaker? Ever seen AVALANCHE? Now that's a monster that uses interruption and disruption to kill you and does it great. And it's not even mesmer.

Quote:

PS - Mesmer secondary is used a lot by Monks for e-management, Eles/Necros for echoing, Rangers for more interrupts and condition spreading...

Where do I go to meet these people? Monks usually use GoLE, Rangers use barrage (a, what condition spreading?), which leaves occasional AE skill used by eles and necros. AE skill. Super popular secondary? In Snowwhite and Seven Dwarves perhaps.

The Drunkard · Feb 23, 2010, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Where do I go to meet these people? Monks usually use GoLE, Rangers use barrage (a, what condition spreading?), which leaves occasional AE skill used by eles and necros. AE skill. Super popular secondary? In Snowwhite and Seven Dwarves perhaps.

Seriously? You have never heard of BHA+epidemic, auspicious incandation, echo (and archane echo), inspired/revealed hex, channeling, wnwn, or pdrain before? Do you live under a rock?